The Citroën Classic Challenge archive

[Philip Chidlow]

Sorry, Mat I just re-read my response and I might be coming across as just a wee bit petulant . But I'm not.

To move on:

We make our Route Plans wholly advisory, insofar that what is important will be start and finish points. Because this is shorter, the distances covered in total, less, I did wonder if it wouldn't add something to the event to include (not overly difficult or time-consuming) 'distractions, minor tasks or 'riddles' for those who wanted to participate.

We reduce the entry fee to cover costs, and to provide a small prize-fund for the participants. So instead of £200 it might only be £50.

The charity aspect can be discussed separately.

[mat_fenwick]

No problems. Equally, I'm not trying to dictate how it should be - just my thoughts that may or may not give the event a wider appeal. With it being for charity also helps justify it in some ways, so I'm not necessarily against it, but wanted to encourage debate. And the bigger the event the more organisation needed, but in some ways could take some fun out of it. But on the other hand a large event has its plus points too...

[toddao]

I certainly enjoyed my limited involvement in The BXagon. I think that if you organised another similar event Phil that it should fall in the more clement months of Spring/Summer - better for camping ( already cheaper) and more time in the evening for sitting around drinking er.. discussing the day's events.

[Philip Chidlow]

Agreed, Todd - I have in mind late May, early June.

Mat, I agree it's a fine balance. I want this debated and agreed so we can get on with the job of making sure we have a route and component elements that most will be happy with. And I have been offered assistance from someone who's organised rallies in the past.

It does occur to me that in making this a 'Citroen thing', and involving a selection the various clubs in the UK (apologies to the 2CVGB, Visa, CX, (other) XM forums, but I can't post on all!), we should probably place it under the CCC banner so that we can push for support from Citroen UK and also involve the French equivalent of the CCC - not to mention Citroen France. It'd be an interesting distraction for those enthusiasts over there for whom the ICCCR 2012 is impractical.

[Tim Leech]

last time I ducked out due to be honest of fear of how my job was going but also of driving abroad, both of these fears have been overcome so i am happy to take part. But would want a codriver as I dont speak any french! Possibly not using the GT this time though, maybe the 16TRS would be ideal or even a BX diesel if I can find a nice one.

Tim

[Philip Chidlow]

It'd be good to have you on the event, Tim. I wouldn't worry about the French language too much. You've got some time to do an evening class! (God knows I need to!)

[Tim Leech]

It'd be good to have you on the event, Tim. I wouldn't worry about the French language too much. You've got some time to do an evening class! (God knows I need to!)

You did better than me in May, I just smiled and pointed!

[messerschmitt owner]

It'd be good to have you on the event, Tim. I wouldn't worry about the French language too much. You've got some time to do an evening class! (God knows I need to!)

You did better than me in May, I just smiled and pointed!

I learned that knowing the numbers to fifty, being able to ask for things and say please and thank you is enough to get by. My written French is passable, my spoken French is Allo Allo level. Hasn't stopped me on many trips to France over the years.

A useful suggestion would be to see who wants a co-driver or who would offer to have one too and open it to people who might not otherwise go. Sharing fuel costs and driving time in a vehicle makes things easier and cheaper for both parties.

In 2012, I may be tempted to A-frame a spare vehicle (the schmitt)

[docchevron]

French is easy:
"ello cock, mines a pint"
"whats that, you dont speak English? Look sonny, we bailed you cheese eating surrendor monkies out twice, less of the lip"
Never fails..

[Philip Chidlow]

I have been in discussion with Campbell (messerschmitt owner) and here's a snippet of the discussion. Some useful stuff there. (me in bold)

My French is rusty - I can read it infinitely better than I can speak it - however, a basic e-mail exchange in French would be relatively easy. I haven't had any dealings with the French Citroen clubs, but there's a first time for everything.

Much like me then. I will contact the CCC board and see if there're any established links we could exploit.

My thoughts are that, for those of us with wives and children (one of each in my case), a week is long enough - it's also expensive enough.

The plan is to make it no more than 6 days. Unfortunately a spate of other people's commitments will mean a fairly rapid elimination of the spring/summer half term as a possible 'slot' (it's not just me). For me, the summer hols 2012 are out because of the need to take the family on a big holiday (to make up for lack of one this year!). Funds will be tight, so I can't afford to make it a long event, which is going to resonate with many potential participants!

Basically, the best way to approach things is to drive to the furthest point as quickly as possible and to leisurely drive back. A road trip is great if one has time to see things, but a nightmare if it is nothing but driving. One also wants to be off the autoroutes as much as possible, as they are boring. I'm sure everyone will want a mix of landscapes and I can't help feeling that a mix of countries would be good ….

I had considered this and would suggest a deep 'thrust' into the continent; maybe 280-320 miles, to start to ball rolling. My preference would be to make the route relatively free of main roads (except for the initial push) and certainly peage free. I have had requests for some mountain terrain to be included. This - given our self-imposed time restrictions - will limit options. I am personally keen to see some high stuff too.

…. the drive through Belgium to Luxembourg, out through Germany, into Alsace-Lorraine and back via Paris would be a good drive out. Some fantastic scenery too and the option to go to the Schlumpf collection and the French Railway Museum at Mulhouse.

I am considering suggesting a route which does indeed take in some of this, as I agree with you: in essence, variety is the spice of life. I'll post rough outline(s) soon to encourage debate..

However, my experience is it is better just to tell people where they're going and where we are staying each night, etc. As long as it is interesting enough, they'll follow. Anarchy is what happens if you give them too much choice. I'd recommend a maximum of 200 miles (300km) a day - that should be four hour-five hours driving each day. The 'proper' rallies have some form of trials and competitions along the way to keep people together and interested, so that would need sorted. Again, wackier the better for some, with one or two serious ones too.

My thinking too, although for a short event I might suggest a first and last stage longer than 200 miles (as indicated above). I have to consider the position of the event should anything befall either a participant or other party whilst an activity is being undertaken. I would rather do nothing than have to buy extensive legal protection.

I'd perhaps suggest a route that involves the Conservatoire - can't help feeling we should all go. If going via Alsace, it may be possible to organise a trip to the smart factory too, at Hambach, as I have very good contacts that could see us get a tour of the factory.

In all honesty, I think a Conservatoire visit is not in the scope of this; it's something the CCC arranges periodically anyway: I went there in May. As for Hambach, I am intrigued, so if we can work it in, let's.

……with runs out and evening entertainment organised each night. Obviously, doing something in another country involves a little more effort and a recce trip, but it could be tied in with a holiday.

I would have thought handling each and every evening's activities would be seen by many as too organised! But we can suggest options; no harm in that. Organising too much also gets us into the potential quagmire of liability. The BXagon didn't have to insure or accept liability for anything as it was deliberately arranged as a 'facilitator' suggesting mere choices in an event framework. However we might want to arrange a bash at the end. Recce trips: It's something we could put a call out to interested parties. We've got next year for those to take place.

I'm not a camper - hence the big motorhome we own - but have the kit for a week away in campsites and can access French campsite details quite easily. Again, there are cheap hotel chains and one may be able to organise a block booking with Ibis or similar.

I don't camp much either; I like my comforts, however if it's just for a run of say four or five nights I'll do it. Maybe a hotel stay at either 'end' of the run. I tried block bookings with Ibis and B&B last year. In my opinion; forget it: it's not worth the hassle. Let people sort it themselves given the information of where and when, it means we have no liability.

Bearing in mind the anniversaries, one would want to encourage BX, AX and XM owners, with an attendant following of CXs, 2CVs, etc. First things first is to organise a couple of routes and a date, and open it to people on various forums, with a maximum number of cars (one may only get ten, but one wouldn't want the logistics of a hundred wanting to go).

This, I shall do, but I don't think we need to worry too much about numbers. I would consider getting 50 cars involved would be extraordinary. But maybe right from the start we ought to set a limit? Let me consider.

… approaches can be made to a ferry company for a block or discounted booking, etc. It may even make sense to do a longer ferry sailing too and plan the route accordingly. I'd so much prefer to go to Normandy or Brittany via Portsmouth, Poole or Plymouth than Calais via Dover.

If we were considering Benelux, Germany, Alps I think the Calais crossing would make sense, but also because some participants will be able to get free crossings on the tunnel using their Tesco Clubcard Vouchers (as it is I book three or four crossings a year using them; 'saving' well over £120 each time).

In fact, perhaps a Battlefield tour of France/Belgium might be a good approach - one can cover from Lorient or St Nazaire and the Normandie beaches to the Ardennes battlefields, via places like Oradur sur Glane and the V2 launch sites.

That's a heck of a trip, and it wouldn't be do-able in the time given the other constraints discussed above. Also it would put off potential punters I think. (Although I think one day I would like to do a battlefield tour again). Having said that we could consider a Maginot line detour?

A lot of the above was prompted by comments made earlier, but you get the gist.

I received and responded broadly in agreement (ie limiting the number of entrants):

I can arrange something with smart (it’s a perk of being well known on the smart scene) as I know who to speak to to do some organisation of this.

Six days is perfect – mid-week to mid-week may be good (cheaper ferries/tunnel – and I used the tesco vouchers on the tunnel this year too) as it also gives the option for some to stay for longer. My opinion is always to get as far from Calais on day one as possible, but that last day is always good for shopping in Cite Europe. We stocked up with our year’s supply of wine in August.

I’m keen for mountains too, but I’m from Scotland and quite like them. A trip to Luxembourg and southern Germany is not really far from Switzerland and still possible on 200 miles a day. I’d be keen to let those who want Alpine scenery to make their own way there if they want to progress deeper into France or Switzerland.

Again, activities – I understand the insurance implication and the last thing one would want is an activity that would encourage excess speed or danger. A gentle run through the countryside with a lunchtime pit stop and some well-chosen sights would be adequate.

I would set a limit – say thirty cars. If it sounds exclusive, then some people will be keener to go. That’s the way it works, I think. If you’re committed as part of a small group, you will be more likely not to opt out. Apart from that, it’s better to have a small but close knit group than an uncontrollable mass – especially if doing things like swamping an attraction. In the evening, a smaller group will be easier to accommodate in a pub or restaurant if required. It can become unmanageable very quickly. It’ll also mean people are more likely to mingle....

.... I'll put together date/route combinations for discussion.

[Tim Leech]

Ok Phil, well I would prefer the tunnel if the costs are acceptable after feeling so crap last time, then again I did forgot to take the sickness pills that liz provided!

[messerschmitt owner]

Ok Phil, well I would prefer the tunnel if the costs are acceptable after feeling so crap last time, then again I did forgot to take the sickness pills that liz provided!

the tunnel is more expensive if you have to pay but tesco vouchers are great for it £10 tesco voucher = £40 of ticket on the chunnel. My motorhome (which had a coach to itself last time) cost £155 in August but cost to me was £40 in vouchers.A car midweek in June would be c. £30 in tesco vouchers.

[Philip Chidlow]

Well, seeing as we always seem to have plenty, the Tesco Crossing is the one I'd use Tim - start shopping in Tesco, (and get a Club Card)...

[Philip Chidlow]

On the FCF there has been some suggestion of a trip to Millau bridge.


it strikes me that the Millau Viaduct is a good target to go to and from. It's 2-3 days easy driving (even from Zeebrugge) and easily routed around Normandy for some historical interest. I have family about 40 miles south of Millau, and the Causse du Larzac (immediately south of Millau) is fascinating (look up the Cirque du Navacelles!). I'm also sure Millau would be glad of the trade now that the bridge has taken much of the passing trade away.

My thoughts:

I agree. I've never been and I'd like to see it. Encouraged by the responses I have given it some thought…

But…

I have looked into a possible six day tour which includes a crossing of that bridge, and - although I'm open to suggestions, I just can't seem to make it 'work'.

I want to keep the average daily drive down to about 200 miles, so we can fit in some 'activities' and socialising and in acknowledgement of feedback about the original BXagon's scope. Although I have no problem in racking up 300+ miles a day, it does mean spending a large proportion of the day in the car - especially if one takes the scenic route.

For example; with a start point of Calais, avoiding peage, Millau is about 610 miles away (c.340 miles of that on motorway). It's closer to 740 miles if you don't want to spend a lot of time just on a boring motorway. And that's not even considering doing a tour around Normandy, as Sl4yer suggests (attractive though it may be!).

Assuming we do stick to the motorways (without paying) where possible, with an overnight at Nevers, say, that's do-able, but allowing for short stops etc. that's a full two days taken up getting to our destination. In all honesty I think most would prefer a slightly more leisurely event so maybe two overnights en route would be more acceptable. Let's call it three days.

Anyway, it gives us three days left, to mill about Millau for a morning (crossing the bridge at the start) and make our way back to Calais via a different route. Avoiding motorways where possible and always missing out the peage, that means day four might take us through Rodez (worth a visit) and end near Tulle. That's just over 170 miles. Given the stops and morning activity that's about as far as you might expect to get... and so on… (averaging 'only' 175-200 miles per day through some lovely landscapes and charming villages etc. is not going to upset too many.

That means on day five, from Tulle we get as far as Valençay, possibly. Then by the end of day six somewhere around Evreaux/Bernay. (Then it's either Dieppe or Amiens (both interesting places) before the final day off to Calais). Clearly we've run out of 'days', however.

I reckon to try to make Calais in two or three days (or even one) from Millau would be possible of course, but not much fun. Especially if people wanted to stop for any length of time en route or deviate slightly to visit a place particular interest. I reckon on four days, to arrive not too late in the day in Calais. And that's without arranging a day with a French club meet which is something I'd like to look into.

Unless I'm missing something (suggestions?).

OK. Here's what I think: a trip to Millau is attractive but in the context of the original aim of this event, not feasible.

So if someone wants to arrange (even for 2011?) a trip there, then please go ahead I would be tempted but probably unable to attend, sadly!)

I will be posting some tour alternatives soon. All of which will be considered a possibility, and I will take a poll and seek counsel as appropriate and that goes for dates too.

Phil

[MULLEY]

Phil,

any particualar reason why you're wanting to do this in France, this adds levels of expense that are avoidable if you did a UK one instead. I fancy a trip upto Scotland which has got some amazing scenery. Just my 2p worth.